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Author Topic: Intro list building (updated)  (Read 1693 times)

bigchris

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Intro list building (updated)
« on: December 30, 2017, 01:39:04 PM »
With the intro league just around the corner.  I thought I would share some thoughts I have received from veteran players at Off the Wall gaming in Mass in regards to list selection, and building.

List Selection;  Pretty much every list is viable, whether Early War BEF,MW German DAK ,or Late War Japanese. My concerns about tank shenanigans were put to rest with confirmation that, excepting in larger point games (1500 or beyond), you won't ever really encounter things like Tiger tanks, IS-2's or other big vehicles.  Medium tanks like Panzer IV's, Shermans, Cromwells, T-34's are what you may encounter, but more likely Armored Cars, Halftracks, and Trucks tend to be the support of choice for most 1000 point games.  Light tanks are also likely, but since this is an infantry oriented game, They can be dealt with moderate difficulty.

List Building;  Like FoW, units costs vary based on their relative skill level.  veterans cost more than regulars, and green units are fairly cheap.  Likewise their morale levels also reflected in this.  Each squad, or sub-unit generates an order dice, which is the basis for every action in the game.  The trick is finding a balance between units (skill level and morale, size and equipment, which will take you back to similar list construction from 40K) and enough order dice to keep active each round and not get caught short.  We will be running the Intro league forces at 500 points maximum.  This is enough points for your Platoon HQ, 2-3 squads of Infantry, a supporting weapon or two (MG teams, Mortars, flamethrower, Sniper, Bazooka, etc), and possibly a transport type vehicle (halftrack, truck).  I will also note, that unlike FoW, you can get away with a "trackless list"  in this game.

At 500 points your Platoon leader will most likely be a junior (2nd LT) Officer with 1 extra soldier following him around. It's recommended to keep it to this as the two count as a small unit and therefore are harder to hit when shooting. You may decide to field the Platoon leader as a Veteran, Regular, or Green, and either the junior, or senior (1st Lt) Officer.  the advantage of the Senior Officer is the ability to give two "Snap to Soldier!" orders as opposed to one generated by the Junior officer.  Snap to orders allow you to draw additional order dice for squads when you activate the officer instead of waiting to draw them in the normal course of a game. It allows you to be a bit more aggressive, but could leave you short of order dice later in a turn if things don't roll well. 

Squads;  Each squad usually has a base of an NCO and around 4 soldiers, with provision to add up to about 6-7 more troops (depending on nationality).  9-10 seems to be the sweet spot with a modest mix of weapon upgrades (LMG's, SMG's, Shotguns, Panzerfausts, etc).  Usually you want to select 1 veteran squad and go with regulars for the rest.  Of course, some lists may only let you select troops of only one quality type (Veteran types like Commando's, Paratroopers, SS, etc.) so the selections an become trickier.

Support Options;  You'll probably want one Medium MG team (.30 cal American Browning, British Vickers, German MG42, etc), and one other supporting weapon (most likely a Medium Mortar).  Other options can include Snipers, Flamethrower teams, Medics, Forward Observers (to call in off board Artillery), Forward Air Controller (to call in Air support), Anti-Tank Teams (Bazooka's, PIATS, Panzerschreks, Fragmutts, Nikahaku teams, AT Rifles, etc), and vehicles (Armored Fighting Vehicles, Armored Cards, and transports).

Here is the list I plan on fielding for the league.  I am basing it on the American Paratroopers from the Band of Brothers starter box.

List: 1944 Normandy
Order Dice: 6
Points: 500

First LT (Equipped as Modeled), Regular
1 Paratrooper (Equipped as Modeled), Regular (has to be the same as the Officer)

Paratrooper Squad, Veteran
NCO with smg
Paratrooper with smg
8 Paratroopers with Rifles (M1 Garands and M1 Carbines)

Paratrooper Squad, Veteran
NCO with smg
Paratrooper with smg
7 Paratroopers with Rifles (M1 Garands and M1 Carbines)

Medium Machine-Gun team, Regular
3 Paratroopers with MG (M1919 Browning .30 Cal)

Light Mortar Team (Paratrooper Version), Veteran
2 Paratroopers with 60mm Mortar

Bazooka Team, Regular
2 Paratroopers with a Bazooka.

As you can see, at 500 points I can field two fairly robust squads, with an MG and Mortar in support, and a Bazooka team to hit harder targets, like bunkers, buildings, or opposing support teams.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

Michael

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 12:44:39 AM »
Thanks for posting, Chris. It's good to hear that most lists will be competitive. As I mentioned earlier, I'm going with Commandos. I can do the full 500 points from the box:

47 ROYAL MARINE COMMANDO
HQ: 2nd Lt. plus Commando w SMG
Squad: NCO w SMG, Commando w SMG, Commando w LMG, loader, 6x Commandos with rifles
Squad: NCO w SMG, Commando w SMG, Commando w LMG, loader, 5x Commandos with rifles
Light mortar team: Commando w light mortar, loader
PIAT team: Commando w PIAT, loader

I wonder if the LMGs are worth it, considering the mandatory loader, but I'm going to give it a try and see if it works.




"A leader leads by example, not by force."

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 11:50:08 AM »
The loss of single shot fired by a rifleman vs the number of shots gained with a Light machine gun is negligible. You can move and shoot with only a -1 penalty in hitting (RoF remains the same whether you move or not).  What most players seem to do, from what I have been told, is to set up your squads with the idea of squads that provide a base of fire, and squads that can assault.  This is basic infantry Fire and maneuver.  So you don't necessarily need to have the LMG in each squad, but you will want at least one.  So what you might look at doing, is dropping the LMG from one squad. Here's what I mean:

Normandy RM Commando Troop (I assume this is the list you are going with.)
Order Dice: 5
Points: 500

2nd LT (Equipped as modeled), Veteran
RM (Equipped as modeled), Veteran
Commandos

RM Commando Sub-Section, Veteran (Fire squad)
RM NCO with smg
RM with smg
RM with LMG (requires loader)
7x RM with Rifles
Commandos

RM Commando Sub-Section, Veteran (Maneuver/Assault squad)
RM NCO with smg
3x RM with smg
6x RM with Rifles
Commandos

RM Light Mortar
Light Mortar Team
2 Man team
Commandos

RM PIAT Team
PIAT Team
2 Man Team
Commandoes

Special rules:

COMMANDOS:  this gives you a couple of goodies.  First is tough fighters which gives you a second roll in assaults for each successful to hit roll.  Second is Behind Enemy Lines.  This gives; When Outflanking, ignore the -1 modifier to the Order test for coming onto the table.

2 MAN TEAM;  Normally most support weapons are three man teams and so they can be fixed onto a single spot and only rotate to face new directions under most normal circumstances.  But with 2 Man Team, your light mortar can relocate to different locations as easily as you move your other squads.

This is an aggressive force that rewards constant movement.  Speed, Firepower, shock effect, will be your watchwords.  It'll take time to speed up your thinking from FoW (Most scenarios have a 6 turn limit) and you'll really shine in scenarios with specific objectives (there's a nice mix of scenarios in the book)  for you to secure.

Of course, I don't expect you to take things verbatim, but hopefully it gives you some new thoughts.


Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

AvogadroTheMole

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2018, 02:53:18 PM »
Thanks for the post, Chris. A lot of that jives with what I have been picking up in snippets here and there. I am starting to get a little more excited about giving BA a whirl (although maybe that is just the joy from seeing Mike cringe when I tell him how many men are in my 500 pt list).

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 09:09:29 AM »
Thanks for the post, Chris. A lot of that jives with what I have been picking up in snippets here and there. I am starting to get a little more excited about giving BA a whirl (although maybe that is just the joy from seeing Mike cringe when I tell him how many men are in my 500 pt list).

I trust you told him the extra bodies are MG fodder?
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

Michael

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 08:37:34 PM »
Thanks for the list ideas, Chris. I'll probably end up with something very similar to your list, but with two Vickers K LMGs in the fire base squad. I might add the free artillery observer as well - the bombardment may not do much, but the extra die may be very important.
"A leader leads by example, not by force."

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 12:00:19 AM »
I was thinking of doing FJ especially given the variety of weapons and equipment, nice modeling to being able to mix FJ elements with grenadiers.

Here's my thoughts at 500pts

HQ 2nd LT and dude with assualt rifles; regular
Green FJ Squad Full strength: 10 men, NCO with Assault rifle, 2x LMG, 7x men, 1 Panzerfaust; inexperienced
Green FJ Squad Full strength: 10 men, NCO with Assault rifle, 2x LMG, 7x men, 1 Panzerfaust; inexperienced
Sniper Team; Regular
Flammpanzer 38t; regular (alternatively replace with a Puma and drop the PzFausts)

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 07:48:30 AM »
Here's my thoughts at 500pts

HQ 2nd LT and dude with assualt rifles; regular
Green FJ Squad Full strength: 10 men, NCO with Assault rifle, 2x LMG, 7x men, 1 Panzerfaust; inexperienced
Green FJ Squad Full strength: 10 men, NCO with Assault rifle, 2x LMG, 7x men, 1 Panzerfaust; inexperienced
Sniper Team; Regular
Flammpanzer 38t; regular (alternatively replace with a Puma and drop the PzFausts)

Just some food for thought Phil.  You might want to drop the Tank at 500 points and maybe go with at least regular squads.  Inexperienced squads are harder to order about once they start getting pinned, and are easier to hit. Like FoW, your squads rating can determine how hard, or easy it is to hit you, and how hard it is to pass morale tests to execute orders.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 05:52:17 PM »
Being full strength will help a lot early on as i get to reroll those tests. When I do lose a guy in a unit I have a 1/3 chance to be uprated to regulars for free.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 07:03:46 PM »
Partly why I stayed away from regulars is no regular FJ, only inexperienced or vets

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 07:43:24 AM »
Partly why I stayed away from regulars is no regular FJ, only inexperienced or vets

What list are you using?
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 07:22:48 PM »
Chris, I'm just using the reinforced platoon. There are only 2 FJ entries for LW; Fallshirmjager and Green Fallshirmjager. All other entries are Heer, SS, or the LW Feldtroops

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 10:15:03 AM »
Ok, Now that I am back home I can look at the list more closely.  Again, food for thought.  Bolt action is a Platoon level Infantry oriented game, while FoW is a, mostly, tank oriented game at a company or Battalion level.  Order dice are very important as part of list balance.  5 is ok, but you could be at a severe disadvantage vs forces that can get more (like Soviets, or Japanese).  500 points is really where you want to build a core of your infantry force.  Using a tank at that level might look good on paper, but it's easier to kill tanks in this game that FoW, so losing that would be very bad, as all you had to fall back on was the Sniper team, and two squads of green, inexperienced infantry that could collapse, or could get better.  Tanks are usually a better addition at around 1000 points. 

This is what I would recommend to build your Fallschirmjager as a base;

Regular Officer (Equipped as Modeled)
1 Soldier (Equipped as Modeled)

Fallschirmjager Squad  Veteran
NCO with Assault Rifle
7 Infantry with Rifles
Squad is Stubborn

Fallschirmjager Squad  Veteran
NCO with Assault Rifle
7 Infantry with Rifles
Squad is Stubborn

Fallschirmjager Squad  INexperienced
NCO with smg
2 Infantry with LMG (requires loader)
6 Infantry with Rifles
Squad is Green

Medium Machine-Gun Team Regular
3 man MMG
Team (3 men), Fixed

Sniper Team Regular
1 Sniper Team (Rifle)
Team (2 man), Sniper

This comes to 500 points exactly and has 6 Order dice.    I think you'll find it's more robust and flexible.
Squad is Stubborn
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

Mean Saloney

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 12:07:05 PM »
A tank may be tough to deal with for enemy lists at 500pts simply because we don't expect to see one lol.

But tanks can't contest or take objectives, so it could just be ignored.


I think I'm going to go with Germans too, despite already buying some American stuff. I saw some of Warlords Winter Germans and the models looks awesome so that's what I'm going to do now haha.

Here's what I'm thinking for 500pts. Probably not the most competitive, but good to learn with I think.


2nd lt +1 guy with smgs, regular

Heer veteran squad, 1x smg, 2x ARs, 2x LMG, 3x rifles (2 are loaders), and one with a faust

Heer regular squad, 1x smg, 2x ARs, 1x LMG, 4x rifles (1 loader) and 2x Faust's

Regular medium mortar, with spotter

Veteran sniper

Veteran medic.

6 dice and 500pts exact.

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 09:39:53 AM »
Right now I'm aiming for learning the game, competitive can come during the escalation league starting in February.  But a few suggestions.  I'd drop the medic.  It only gives you a 1 in 6 chance of negating a wound, and for the the points it's not really worth it.  You also might need so many Panzerfausts right off the bat.  You can always add them later as you work your way towards 1000 points.  Instead add a MMG team to cover a sector and you want your Veteran squad to be able to stick and move.

2nd Lt (Equipped as Modeled)
1 Soldier (Equipped as Modeled)

Heer Grenadier Squad    Regular
NCO with smg
1 Infantry with lmg (requires loader)
5 Infantry with Rifle
2 Infantry with Assault Rifle

Heer Veteran Grenadier Squad     Veteran
NCO with Assault Rifle
1 Infantry with lmg (requires loader)
5 Infantry with Rifles
2 Infantry with Assault Rifles
1 Panzerfaust

Medium Machine Gun Team     Regular
1 Medium Machine Gun Team
Team (3 men), Fixed

Medium Mortar Team    Regular
1 Medium Mortar Team
Team (3 men), Fixed, Indirect Fire, HE (2")
1 Spotter

Sniper Team     Regular
1 Sniper Team
Team (2 man), Sniper

Still comes to exactly 500 points and gives you 6 order dice.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.