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Author Topic: Intro list building (updated)  (Read 474 times)

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 01:20:36 AM »
Ok I think I've figured it out. I'd forgotten inexperienced troops get -1 to hit.

However, I think I like the idea of a single inexperienced vehicle at 500pts. Flammpanzer 38(t) is only 108pts (which is about the same as a panzershreck, or a small squad) and a puma is only 128pts. Being armored enough they can't get pins from small arms, the medium armor of a Flammpanzer and the recon ability of a puma both help to keep them alive.

HQ: Officer and Dude with Assault rifles
FJ plt(8): NCO w/ Assault Rifle, 1x Assault Rifle, 1x SMG, 3x rifles, 1x LMG, 1 loader
FJ plt(6): NCO w/ rifle, 1x LMG, 1 loader, 3x Rifles
Sniper: Vet
FlammPz 38(t)

To take the Puma drop Sniper to regular and a single Assault rifle.

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 01:27:15 PM »
The squads are still small, and fragile, you really should think of dropping vehicles until around 800-1000 points.  You'd still be better off filling out the squads and maybe supporting with an MMG or a Mortar team.  If the tank gets pancaked you're still going to be severely disadvantaged.  As it is, you will struggle right now vs Soviets, and Japanese (order dice and too many squads for you to frag quickly enough), and Anyone with a couple of Shaped charges will outrange the flammpanzer by 12" at least.  One good shot and a fairly large part of your force is gone.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 06:31:35 PM »
I'll have to see. not too worried 'bout shaped charges, because that tank is about as expensive as the shaped charge unit itself, and it also has a MMG as part of the tank. If they have no credible AT the tank can be a nasty bully, If they do, It can likely avoid a single AT threat. I mean the tank is less than twice the cost of an MMG and isn't nearly so fragile pr vulnerable to pins. A single sniper hit kills an MMG for instance.

From what I was reading 6 man squads are fine for vets (and one of them is 8 men). Only real way I could figure to get 6 order dice in any case is to take 3x 6man units (one regular, 2 vets), a sniper, and a Pak36(regular), which seems really static.

From what I saw at 1,000pts, 11 order dice was typical for vet forces, so 5-6 seems solid for 500pts.

I fear part of the trouble with some rules is they don't scale well. Russians get one free squad at 500pts and at 1,000 or at 2,000. Additionally, weapon costs are the same regardless of quality of the unit. e.g. Inexperienced guys die at 2x the rate of vets and get a -1 to hit, yet it's still +20pts for LMG.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:34:32 PM by winterwolf8601 »

Michael

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2018, 07:56:04 PM »
I agree with your point about scaling. The game is designed for 1000 points, and I doubt our experiences at 500 will be fully indicative of how the list will work at 1000. I'm treating this as a training exercise for now. I'll get serious about list building once I've played a few games at 1000.
"A leader leads by example, not by force."

AvogadroTheMole

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 04:21:14 PM »
I think I now have an opinion and some insight to offer on the question of a proper tank at 500 pts. I think in an open tournament environment, go for it. Looking at the stats on the FlammHetzer, that is one limited vehicle. You are playing enormously off the medium tank rating (9+ to damage) and opponents' lists lacking adequate AT to stop you (also the reason I am against it in learn-to-play environs). Sure, you may have beautiful games where you torch 3 squads off the table over 4 turns and still have the flamer available. But if that flamer is not lighting the world on fire (heh!) then you just paid a colossal premium for an MMG. That plus the limited range on the flamer means you want to get relatively close and in the opponents face. Maybe not point blank, but much closer than if you were an assault gun with a howitzer. Combine with the 45 degree arcs making flank and rear much more prevalent than in FoW and you have a recipe for tension with anything that has any AT rating, whatsoever. Particularly in later rounds, when the Hetzer is in close, that lack of order dice leads to a high chance of the nearby infantry going first and getting a decent assault off, which with tank grenades can easily endanger the tank. And the +1 to damage courtesy of being a flame tank makes it even scarier. If the tank decides to skulk back where its flanks are safe and most AT is at penalty, well good luck with that 150 point MMG and enjoy pressing forward with inexperienced infantry. Without the tank meaning units on objectives I predict a lot of fire will fall on those squads. Field promotion to regular or not, they will accumulate a lot of pins and probably a lot of kills very quickly (just to get upgraded they have to have at least one pin and one kill against them, so hello order test). On top of all of that, some punk with a Bazooka can obliterate the Hetzer with a single shot for outside the Hetzer's move and spray range. Basically, in an open and competitive environment I think the FlammHetzer is a perfectly reasonable gambit to take and the points are probably fair on it (actual play-testing lacking, though).

In a learn-to-play environment where the emphasis is placed on learning the rules and building core forces, I would consider bringing one rude. As I argued above, the gambit is heavily predicated on out armoring your opponents AT and their not knowing how to take down such a beast. Additionally, the missions are most likely to be basic killing missions to learn mechanics where the penalty of not contesting objectives is limited. In such an environ it is fair to assume most players, especially newbies will field highly generic and basic forces that are less likely to have the kit to threaten a medium tank. So, I think it to be against the spirit to pose such a risk for offering a negative play experience to the other players.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 08:23:49 PM »
BTW Matt it is an 108pt MMG being inexperienced. One of cheapest fully inclosed vehicles in the game. I get your other points though. All the FJ in this list are Vets and Stubborn.

Mean Saloney

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »
BTW Matt it is an 108pt MMG being inexperienced. One of cheapest fully inclosed vehicles in the game. I get your other points though. All the FJ in this list are Vets and Stubborn.

One other thing about the vehicle is that even fully enclosed tanks, if they're inexperienced, will be pinned by hits from anything with a pen of +1 or more, regardless of whether the hit could actually damage the tank. So mortars, HMGs, light howitzers, etc can all still pin an inexperienced tank. Same for Regular tanks except there's a 50/50 chance it can be ignored for regulars.

Page 101 for reference.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 02:19:23 AM »
True that, at least that means such things aren't shooting the infantry though.

Other thought that occurred to me it to take a 251/9 instead. Not only does it have a light howitzer and mmg, but it can transport 8 guys(I.e. 2x HQ men and a 6man squad). N.B 251/9 doesn't suffer penalties for being a transport vehicle as it is purchased as a tank. I very much like the mobility.

That'd result in something like this

HQ 2 guys
FJ: 3x Assault rifles, 1x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x rifle
FJ: 4x rifles, 1xLMG
Vet Sniper team
Regular 251/9 with an MMG



« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:49:56 AM by winterwolf8601 »

AvogadroTheMole

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 08:24:39 PM »
BTW Matt it is an 108pt MMG being inexperienced. One of cheapest fully inclosed vehicles in the game. I get your other points though. All the FJ in this list are Vets and Stubborn.

I clearly lost track of things during iteration. As inexperienced, my sense of "go for it" in a tourney is enhanced. Also, is not a veteran MMG ~65 pts? If so, I would take the Reg or Vet MMG over the inexperienced Hetzer if you do not plan to go forward aggressively flaming all comers.

Hetzer vs. 251...well I do not know. They are so different in their gear and style. The half track certainly should be able to work better as a lurk and blast asset. And given its 7+ rating, it may want to. So...uncertain shrug?

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 10:58:22 PM »
Yeah very different in some respects. Everyone knows I got no problem being super aggressive when situation is favorable :) I didn't mean to suggest it "should" hang back, merely that the hetzer "could" if faced with AT assets(which sniper might be able to eliminate in any case).

The main reason I like the 251/9 is the transport ability and versatility. Its one of most versatile units in the game as I can see. MMG, Light Howitzer, and can carry 8 guys inside it, that's pretty sweet. I'd imagine I could use it to either hang back and pound stuff, or zip up with a squad and commander to take important position quickly.

Mean Saloney

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 03:31:07 PM »
I'm curious about transports and how well they will work in the game. I'm pretty sure I read that any time a transport gets a pin, the infantry inside also does. I think you can still do rally orders with the infantry while mounted which is good, but I wonder how often you'll be trying to drop out pinned infantry.

With inexperienced troops it may not even be worth transporting them as they might just keep failing tests to get out lol.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 07:46:36 PM »
True that. Vets with a commander should be good though.

bigchris

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2018, 09:52:10 AM »
Having at least one type of transport will be good in games were nothing starts on the table and you have to race to capture objectives.  Halftracks are better than trucks as they aren't likely to be captured quickly or run off.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2018, 07:17:26 PM »
So with one squad in a transport what's people's opinion on armament. Both squads will probably be 6man (transported one has to be 6).

I could do one squad with all assault rifles, and the other has an LMG and maybe an assault rifle for NCO or some such

I could do one squad with half assault rifles, half SMGs, and then the other can get 2 LMGs

Or I can make the squads more general purpose at least with the LMGs. I could give each squad one and then as many assault rifles as I can in the mobile squad. What's people's thoughts?

Mean Saloney

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Re: Intro list building (updated)
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2018, 07:50:56 PM »
So with one squad in a transport what's people's opinion on armament. Both squads will probably be 6man (transported one has to be 6).

I could do one squad with all assault rifles, and the other has an LMG and maybe an assault rifle for NCO or some such

I could do one squad with half assault rifles, half SMGs, and then the other can get 2 LMGs

Or I can make the squads more general purpose at least with the LMGs. I could give each squad one and then as many assault rifles as I can in the mobile squad. What's people's thoughts?

For 500pts I think I'm taking the balanced approach. My Regular platoon has 2 ARs, 1 LMG, 1 SMG. The Vet platoon has 2 ARs, 2 LMG, and 1 SMG. At 750 I think I will specialize more with a vet squad taking 2LMGs and the rest rifles, and another vet squad with mostly ARs. Thats because I'll have a third, regular squad with an SMG and LMG as a reactionary one. With only 2 squads at 500 I feel like I need each to be able to multitask as the other squad may be out of reach to assist if things go sour for one of them.

Nice thing about the transport is that you can situationally decide which squad jumps in. So if you want to get your LMG squad into a place with a nice big field of view you can do that, or if you want to quickly attack an objective before its reinforced you can load up an AR platoon.