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Author Topic: List building in v4  (Read 883 times)

bigchris

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List building in v4
« on: March 11, 2017, 01:49:33 PM »
Among the changes we are seeing to version 4, is how lists will be constructed from now on.  Gone is the need for an even number of platoons for reserves (reserves now being point based), and fielding multiple small companies under the total points cost opens up a different avenue for making a force for Flames of War going forward.  Some of us, who have been playing a long time, have all embraced a similar criteria for list building as it has been. Basics have always included, at least 1 recce platoon or patrol, some type of smoke, and an even number of platoons to allow for not being hamstrung by reserves.

But this all goes out the window now.  Now reserves will be based on percentages of points as opposed to number of platoons. All lists will be needing some mobility for a more aggressive game with scenarios having tougher requirements for victory (which as a TO is going to be a big headache for awhile).  And special national rules,as well as some special rules have been changed and may or may not work as well, or be as effective as they were before.  While some may gnash their teeth as this change may effectively put an end to some favorite lists.  I will looking at this as an opportunity to "relearn" how to build, play, and develop a list.  To be sure, I think there are going to be some issues going forward.  Nut I am hopeful this will not hamper the game we all enjoy too deeply.

As a point of start for V4, I am going to start over again using a LW British Rifle company.  Now Gregg has already put changes to certain lists on Forces of War, One of which is for the British in Overlord.  That is going to be my new starting point.  I have selected the Desert Rats Lorried Rifle Company and with this years LW points at 1515, I have put together a preliminary list.  I'm not entirely sold on the two smaller company's idea yet, so we will see whether this is a better choice than the 1 company approach.

So, My "beginners" Version 4 list:

British Lorried Rifle Company, 7th Armoured Div "Desert Rats"
Reluctant Veteran
Cautious, Not Stupid; 7th Armoured Division Units pass Remount and Rally tests on a 4+

HQ
1iC, 2iC Rifle Teams

Combat Platoon
Lorried Rifle Platoon
Cmd Rifle/MG team
Light Mortar Team
PIAT Team
6xRifle/MG Teams

Lorried Rifle Platoon
Cmd Rifle/MG team
Light Mortar Team
PIAT Team
6xRifle/MG Teams

Weapons Platoons
Lorried Carier Platoon: 3x Universal Carrier
Lorried Carrier Patrols count as Reconnaissance Platoons

Lorried Anti-Tank Platoon: 4x OQF 6 pdr gun (late)

Support Platoons
Armoured Recce Platoon (7th): 3x Cromwell IV
The Cromwell tanks of an Armoured Recce Platoon are Scouts.

Armoured Recce Platoon (7th): 3x Cromwell IV
The Cromwell tanks of an Armoured Recce Platoon are Scouts.

Corps Anti-Tank Platoon (SP), Royal Artillery: 4x M10C 17 pdr SP
Confident Trained

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (7th):
2x Command Teams
Staff Team
Observer Rifle Team
OP Carrier
4x OQF 25 pdr Gun

Air Observation Post: Auster AOP

Comes to exactly 1515 points.

So, a couple of points.  I know you only get one Artillery spotter now, but the Observer Rifle team comes with the battery and I can't exactly drop it. I'll be using the AOP instead.  Interestingly enough, I still managed to fit 8 platoons in (old habits will be hard to break)  but I think this is a good starting point and should give me ability to both attack and defend under the new scenario guidelines.  Also this should give me enough to cover learning the basics of how the new game works with everything from movement to how combined arms will work under the new system.

Please feel free to critique the list or post your own ideas as this will hopefully get everyone into the flow of the new game.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

JoeLaderoute

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 04:22:10 PM »
I'm going to give Germans a go for V4, I've been quietly building up a big collection and it's time to actually use them. I have no clue where to start but my collection leans towards mech infantry and armor which seems to have gone in favor of V4. I do need suggestions for lists if vet German players want to kick me in the right direction.
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.

bigchris

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 06:16:06 PM »
Joey, you have the Tiger tanks to start.  I'd say some Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers, and Arty of some type might be your best choice.  From what I am reading, so far, Combined Arms is going to be the way to go. 
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 07:33:44 PM »
I'm not so sure what role infantry has anymore. Seems to me, best bet is tanks + Arty is what you want.

If you want to use Tiger Ie I'd go with either KG Hummel and take some Arty plus up to 10 CT Tiger I. Alternatively, go with Vet Tiger company(probably 503rd out of normandy).

Best German armor lists though are probably the recent East front ones that have enjoy the war.

Michael

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 08:33:40 PM »
I think you're right, Phillip. Something like your early-war Italian carri force. BF said they needed to sell more tanks and guns, and it seems they have found the right formula to do so.

Here's what I've come up with based on our discussion so far:

Panzer Kampfgruppe (CV)
HQ: 2x StuG G (late)
Panzer Platoon: 4x StuG G (late)
Panzer Platoon: 3x Panther G
Armored Rocket Launcher Battery: 3x Panzerwerfer (extra crew)
Rudel

That's 1505 points, and should be able to handle most things. StuGs and Panthers take care of medium tanks, Panzerwerfers to deal with dug-in infantry, and Rudel for the super-heavies.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 08:45:29 PM by Michael »
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JoeLaderoute

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 08:14:07 AM »
Play testing a Tiger 1E company out of Grey Wolf today.

1st iC - 1 Tiger
1st combat platoon- 2 Tigers
2nd combat platoon- 2 Tigers
Armored support- 4 Pz4s
Arty- 3 15mm rocket launchers

I'm leaving Carius behind since his rules haven't been updated yet. I'll let you all know how Tigers in V4 are actually as good as people have been freaking out about
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.

bigchris

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 11:03:37 AM »
I think Infantry will still have a role.  The first time someone gets bogged down trying to get rid of a Strelk company is when you see what will change.  On the face of it, this does seem to be devolving into World of Tanks.  But I'm not ready to shelve my infantry just yet.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 06:21:39 PM »
Play testing a Tiger 1E company out of Grey Wolf today.

1st iC - 1 Tiger
1st combat platoon- 2 Tigers
2nd combat platoon- 2 Tigers
Armored support- 4 Pz4s
Arty- 3 15mm rocket launchers

I'm leaving Carius behind since his rules haven't been updated yet. I'll let you all know how Tigers in V4 are actually as good as people have been freaking out about

Tiger Ies really aren't all that good in LW. Too expensive for what they do. The PzIV/70(V) is probably one of the best tanks now in the game(Always was good) especially with tactical moves being less than V3. Same front armor as a tiger, 1 better AT, 65pts cheaper/vehicle!

winterwolf8601

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 06:30:45 PM »
I'd do something like this from desperate measures @ 1515:
 CT version
10x PzIV/70(V)(HQ, plus 2 platoons of 4)
3x Aufklarer 38(t) (to help the slow PzIV/70s and shoot at planes)
3x 105mm howitzers
Rudel

CV Version
6x PzIV/70(V) (HQ plus a platoon of 4)
4x Stug IIIG (Late)
3x Aufklarer 38(t) (to help the slow PzIV/70s and shoot at planes)
3x 15cm Nebs

Michael

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 08:35:15 PM »
If Pz IV/70s weren't so ridiculously ugly I might consider something like your second list. But they are, so I'll stick with Panthers and StuGs. :)
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Michael

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 09:32:24 PM »
Gregg has added the new artillery stats to Forces, plus percentages of the total for each unit in the list. This is extremely helpful for calculating reserves! 8)
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bigchris

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 11:44:21 AM »
With the Good Spirits rules now in V4 it looks like making sure your core combat force is solid enough to stay on the table is even more important.  Even if you lose the supporting forces from your list, you can still have staying power if you play it right.  Of course, making two smaller commands under the new forces rules make for an odd twist, to me, coming from the traditional way list construction has gone in the past three editions.  Along with it now being a percentage of your force in reserve as opposed to a set number of platoons, points management becomes more critical.
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

bigchris

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 12:33:08 PM »
Another fun bit about list building in V4 is putting the list together.  Now Forces does provide the special rules updates, and allows you to see what percentage of your force each unit is, but for the rest of it, you will have to either hunt through the rulebook to convert on the fly, or write/type up a reference sheet.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 10:33:42 AM by bigchris »
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

bigchris

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 11:36:08 AM »
So while I was at work last night, I had an epiphany moment (yes it made my head hurt :P)  Since v4 allows you to field multiple smaller companies under a single list heading, providing they are both from the same book.  I revisited my nemesis, the Marines from Gung Ho.   Using this new method of list construction I came up with something that might actually work, except Large German Cats and Soviet Tanks, but what can you do?

Gung Ho, USMC list
Sub list 1
Amphibious Tank Company
Core Units:
HQ Platoon: 2x LVT(A)1 (37mm), has Canister rounds

Amphibious Tank Platoon: 4x LVT(A)1 (37mm), has Canister rounds

Amphibious Tank Platoon: 4x LVT(A)4 (75mm), Smoke, Bombardment AT 2 FP 4+

Marine Tank Platoon: 3x M4A2 Sherman with .50 AAMG

Sub List 2
Marine Rifle Company
Core Units
Company HQ: 2x CMD SMG teams
Marine Rifle Platoon:
1x CMD SMG team
9x Rifle Teams

Marine Rifle Platoon:
1x CMD SMG team
9x Rifle Teams

60mm Mortar Platoon: 2x M2 60mm Mortar, Combat attach each one to rifle platoon
Can fire over friendly troops, Bombardment, and 4+ firepower

Marine Assault Section
2x Assault Teams: Bazooka, Pioneer Rifle, Flamethrower Team.  Assault teams combat attached to rifle platoons

Total force comes to 1510, with two distinct core forces. 

Pro's:The combat attachments, buff up the two marine rifle platoons to 14 stands each.  All rated as Fearless Veteran. Light on Bazooka's but the Pioneer team can also cause trouble vs tank assaults.  Flamethrowers lasting longer will be nice.  LVT(A)4 can bombard so mobile Artillery.  Tanks are soft but, it is Marines. 

Cons: Tigers, Panthers, and any other heavy tanks will be trouble.  Vs medium tanks, It will be tough but doable.  Good vs other infantry. 
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

JenkkiMike

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Re: List building in v4
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 11:41:03 AM »
Another fun bit about list building in V4 is putting the list together.  Now Forces does provide the special rules updates, and allows you to see what percentage of your force each unit is, but for the rest of it, you will have to either hunt through the rulebook to convert on the fly, or write/type up a reference sheet.

Chris, I remember you mentioned that you had put together a manual v4 list format in open office. Would you mind sharing it with the group?