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Author Topic: British List Challenge  (Read 417 times)

Michael

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British List Challenge
« on: January 05, 2017, 07:22:05 PM »
The imminent arrival of v4 has put most of my FoW projects on hold until I know what will work in the new regime. Even so, I thought I would do something for the painting challenge. I recently rediscovered some of the minis I was going to use in my project last year (before I got derailed by the ETC Soviet project), so I thought perhaps something British. But what? One of the few things I did get done last year was a nice bagpiper stand. So, perhaps some friends for him to play with?

So, here's the challenge: to design a competitive British late-war list (no point in doing mid right now and early is all set) at 1515. It has to be one that has a decent chance against both the Panzers to the Meuse lists and the Red Banner (ie Matt and Phillip). I would prefer it to have a bagpiper, but it's not mandatory.

Have at it!
"A leader leads by example, not by force."

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 09:27:47 PM »
How bout this mike:

51st Infantry RV (Normandy): 8 platoons, auto-attack, no night attack though :(
HQ: includes bagpiper
Inf: Full, with 2 defrocked priests
Inf: full
3x Universal Carriers, 1 with extra MG, 1 with Piat
6x 6lber (late) with Lloyd Carriers (0/0/0 armored transports to help bring guns up)
2x 3" mortars
3x Pioneer rifles(pointless 55pt platoon to get to 8; but maybe could help with wire or mine or take a flamethrower I guess...)
3x Crocodiles (CT)
3x Crocodiles (CT)

Vs Red banner, you have a 50/50 to stick them on defense and 30 dice of 6" flamethrowers is bad bad news.... Congrats on your likely 8-0 win. If you do defend you can still have a unit of crocs come out and munch most of a platoon before they can assault you, and bull dog and cautious not stupid eliminate most of the downsides of reluctance.

  Vs Pz to the Meuse you will defend, but the PzIVs have to deal with 6 tanks they can't hurt. Deploy like a sitztiger list using the infantry to prevent flanking of the crocs and kill them with the 6lbers and the crocs 75mm gun.

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 09:43:38 PM »
The other type list that also might work vs both of those opponents is a british churchill company with Crocs to make it auto-attack and of course to burninate infantry. could have trouble with red banner IF the red banner has SU-100s; SU-85Ms are also bad news for this list; as are panthers; but PzIVs are probably toast vs these guys).

Churchil Co. normandy 2nd (CT guards)
2x Churchill V (CiC has applique armor)
2x Churchil VI (applique), 1x Churchil IV (late applique)
2x Churchil VI (applique), 1x Churchil IV (late applique)
3x Crocs
51st platoon full with Defrocked priests (RV)
51st 3x Universal Carriers (1 has a piat)
Breaching group full: either 1x Sherman and 2x Sherman Flails; 2x AVRE Churchils; 2x AVRE Churchils or 1x Sherman and 4x Sherman Flails
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 09:57:43 PM by winterwolf8601 »

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 09:51:45 PM »
If you want a fast moving agressive british tank force, simply take a force that gets a breaching group(fantastic value for the unit; and gives auto-attack). This should also work reasonably well against both forces you named(basically an equal footing vs Pz to the meuse; locks Red Banner guys on to defense which is nice, and the Fireflies can snipe any soviet armor around) and may be a bit more your style than the rather methodical approach of the two previous lists.

Consider this for example: 7th AD (RV, Auto-attack; 5-7 platoons)
2x Cromwell
3x Cromwell, 1x Firefly
3x Cromwell, 1x Firefly
3x Cromwell, 1x Firefly
3x Dingos (CT)
Breaching group:(CT) 1x Sherman 2x Sherman Flail; 2x Churchil AVRE; 2x Churchill AVRE (can swap platoons of AVREs for additional sherman flails as desired)

Can do exact same list with CV Shermans from 4th AD instead, and get 5 .cals to throw onto shermans; dropping a AVRE platoon would let you get the vet recon option and leave an additional 10points in either version
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:12:25 PM by winterwolf8601 »

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 10:25:02 PM »
Of these three, 51st is probably the best overall. It's really not particularly weak to anything in particular beside an auto-attacking artillery park(crocs are only TA1). Even sitstigers can be dealt with as FA 13 is hard to pen even with AT 16(its not an easy match, but not an auto-lose) and RT tigers die to flamethrowers pretty easily......(grrr James Huff; though it was only his crazy Arty park that made me get so close)

7th AD is more to your style, is very balanced(both a blessing and a curse).  It's more likely to get decent matchups most of the time, but rarely getting great matchups. It is also likely to be vulnerable to the Sitztiger lists. It's pretty much a Cromwells to the Seine list (though of course no spearhead, but at least 16" moves will help make up for this; and has a few AT 14 guns so can crack heavies frontally, unlike the PzIV horde). No Smoke template is the only thing that's not so good, at least the tanks have direct fire smoke. It is possible to do this but will require dropping a cromwell/sherman to get a pair of CT 25lbers(RV ones are an option for 7th AD too).

The Churchill company strikes me as the balance point between the two overall; though it adds vulnerability to AT 14 guns (though immune to AT 10-11); Fortunately it at least has a smoke template if the Cic ad 2ic partner up.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:30:54 PM by winterwolf8601 »

Michael

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 10:44:31 PM »
Thanks for the ideas, Phillip. With the British, I am willing to play more methodically, and the 51st suits the Scottish theme very well. What about this version from Bulge?

51st ID (CV)
HQ (w piper)
Rifle
Rifle
3x Carriers
4x 6 pounders with carriers
3x Crocs
4x Achilles

Everything is veteran, it's auto attack, and has enough firepower to deal with pesky Panzer  IVs and  the Reds. It also can handle Panthers and SU 100s. Plus I can deploy all three AT platoons if defending (in most cases)
"A leader leads by example, not by force."

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 07:24:13 PM »
It does have some advantage gained by the achilles in terms of versatility(better vs panthers/soviet heavies); but it'll have a harder time vs some lists(e.g. Pz to the Meuse). The list lacks smoke; which will hurt on offense(also Su-100s are nigh useless if they get smoked:+2 to penalty to hit). If I were attacking this; I'd just ignore the Crocs(3 can be ignored; 6 can't) and go for company break by killing the achilles and 6lbers. It'd come to this question: can 3 crocs protect the Achilles and 6lbrs (while not exposing flanks; or getting assaulted) from 14 PzIVs and some Pzfaust infantry?

In contrast: with the RV guys you can line the center of the board with 2 platoons of infantry backed by more 6lbers and 3 crocs with 3 more coming in. In this scenario, I can't flank the crocs without assaulting the infantry (which if deployed right will bring in crocs and 6lbers); and killing the gtg 6lbr platoon will be quite hard to do. Whereas, with the CV guys the 6lbers and achilles can't really afford to stay gtg as they'll need to be able to protect the crocs flanks.

Michael

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 08:43:04 PM »
I see your point about eight platoons being better than six on the defense, and I'm sure that six Crocs are better than three in general. I am reluctant about the reluctant troops, though, and it seems more like a Croc delivery system (ala Jon Cleaves) than a nice, fun, combined arms list. Unfortunately, nice, fun, combined arms lists fair poorly in tournaments.

Can you think of any night attack lists that might do well vs Ardennes Panzers and Red Banner? All the lists I come up with should do fine versus Red Banner (if attacking anyway), but don't have enough AT on table for defense against the Panzers (same deal as CV 51st from Bulge).

If not, I may just paint the Comets and zoom my way to defeat in style! 8)


"A leader leads by example, not by force."

bigchris

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2017, 10:23:34 PM »
I have been following this with great interest.  I'm still trying to find the right mix for playing British Infantry myself.  The question I have, is what about the LW Commonwealth lists?  Are any of them good for dealing with Panzers to the Meuse or Sov Red Banner lists?
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 08:47:36 AM »
I've always liked 78th division from italy. Ends up very similar to the CV 51st, but a bit more options. There's a lot of bits to fiddle with. Main reason to take them is the hellcats and copious armor options too.

HQ: 2x Rifles
Full Rifle plt w/ 3 Sherman Kangaroos
Full Rifle plt w/ 3 Sherman Kangaroos
3x Universal Carriers
2x 3" mortars
3x Crocs
4x Hellcats (Allied)

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2017, 09:45:46 AM »
7th AD is the perfect counter to Pzs to the Meuse. Unfortunately, all the auto-attack brit armored lists are in normandy, so it's either CV Shermans or RV Cromwells.

You can do CV Cromwells with fireflies out of Bulge which has 3 platoons of Cromwells/firefly(late) and a daimler platoon, not as good as the RV ones(mostly cause no auto-attack); though the Fireflies do get AT 15 in this version.

Unfortunately, Brit infantry is naturally weak to Panzers to the meuse at this lowish points level.

If you want to be able to night attack, you've gotta drop the crocs, so something like either of these might work best.

NZ Maori Company (CV though reluctant on company checks)
HQ: 2x rifles w/ sticky bombs
Full Maori Rifle plt w/sticky bombs, 3 Sherman Kangaroos w/.50cals
Full Maori Rifle plt w/sticky bombs, 3 Sherman Kangaroos w/.50cals
3x Universal Carriers
4x South African Sherman 76s (good counter to PzIVs as they've got better armor and virtually autopen with AT 12)
3x M10s, 1x Achilles
2x 25lbrs (have time on target)

or

78th Div
HQ: 2x rifles
Full Rifle plt , 3 Sherman Kangaroos w/.50cals
Full Rifle plt , 3 Sherman Kangaroos w/.50cals
3x Universal Carriers 1w/piat
2x 3" mortars
4x South African Sherman 76s (good counter to PzIVs as they've got better armor and virtually autopen with AT 12)
4x Hellcats (allied)

winterwolf8601

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2017, 10:50:28 AM »
1515 is really hard for getting comets... If you do decide to do comets at 1515, best bet is probably the armored car company or the SAS squadron.

Armored Cars: (CV)
2x Staghound 1
2x Daimler, 1x Sawn-off Daimler with piat
2x Daimler, 1x Sawn-off Daimler with piat
4x Comet
4x Comet

SAS (FV) 4platoons
HQ: 2x Armored Jeeps 1w/ .50cal and AA MG, 1 w/ Twin Mg and AA MG
3x Armored Jeeps 1w/ .50cal and AA MG, 2 w/ Twin Mg and AA MG
3x Jeeps 1w/ .50cal and AA MG, 2 w/ Twin Mg and AA MG
4x Comet (CV)
4x Comet (CV)

SAS (FV) 6 platoons
HQ: 1x Jeeps 1w/ .50cal 
1x Jeep(2ic) w/ Twin Mg, 2x 3" mortars with transport jeeps
3x  Jeeps  w/ Twin Mg
3x Jeeps w/ Twin Mg
3x Jeeps w/ Twin Mg
4x Comet (CV)
4x Comet (CV)


Alternatively as a tank company:
Comet Company: (CV)
1x Comet
4x Comet
4x Comet
3x Universal Carriers, 1 w/ .50cal
3x Wasps

Comet Company: (CV)
1x Comet
4x Comet
4x Comet
3x Jeeps(FV), 1w/ .50cal and AA MG, 2 w/ Twin Mg and AA MG
3x Jeeps(FV), 1w/ .50cal and AA MG, 2 w/ Twin Mg and AA MG



« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 11:00:02 AM by winterwolf8601 »

Michael

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2017, 07:40:46 PM »
Thanks for all of the lists, Phillip!

I think that you are right about Comets at the low point levels - it's hard to fit them in at 1515 - although I do like the armoured car force. I would just need two Staghounds, two Daimler 1s and another Sawn Off Daimler to build that one.

On the other hand, I had completely forgotten about all the options in Road to Rome. I like the night attacking 78th Infantry list. Since I swapped all of my Kangaroos for American stuff, and have armoured cars rather than carriers, I might do a slight variation on your list:

78th Infantry Div (CV)
HQ: 2x rifles
Full Rifle platoon
Full Rifle platoon
Mortar platoon (4x mortars)
76mm Armoured Platoon (4x South Africans)
4x Hellcats (allied)
Armoured Car Platoon (Guards, 2x Daimler, 1x Dingo)

The advantage with this list is I would only have to buy the mortars. So, this may be the winner!
"A leader leads by example, not by force."

bigchris

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2017, 08:37:38 PM »
I haven't used the mortar platoon you traded me.  Do you want to reclaim them?
Look! We're not worried about the German army, we've got enough troubles of our own. To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own goddamn artillery, and besides all that it's raining.

Michael

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Re: British List Challenge
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2017, 10:01:58 PM »
Thanks for the offer Chris, I do appreciate it. After doing a bit more digging in my painting area, I have discovered that I actually have everything I need for the project. Even better, most of it is assembled and primed already. It must be left over from last year's project, which was further along than I remembered. :)

"A leader leads by example, not by force."